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Post by Golden State Warriors (Caleb) on Jul 17, 2017 19:17:03 GMT -5
Alright. I know everyone has different voting styles. Everyone on the TC is on the TC for a reason. I trust the members to have a good sense of players values, and thus make fair votes on these trades. In general i think everyone does, but there have been some trades recently where i've just down right disagreed with some votes and reasoning for votes. I know this is naturally just going to happen some time. We all have opinions. But I want to break this trade down as sort of a way of opening a dialogue, not necessarily on this post but just in general.
Anyways, I want to start by saying i think Celtics wins this trade. Secondly, whether some of you agree or not, i think vetoes should reserved for instances when one team loses a trade so bad, that there is really no chance of them ever getting some sort of positive from a trade. I think every owner has the right to make their own decisions, but you all already knew that. Lets get into the trade.
Jaylen Brown is 20 years old, he played playoff minutes last year as a 19 year old, dominated summer league, and was the 3rd pick last year. GUYS the 4th pick in this years draft was moved for Jeff Teague, the 6th pick was moved for Gordon Hayward. How can you then turn around here and say JAylen Brown avged nothng last year its not fair! LOOK AT THE VALUE OF THE PLAYER. I know some of you don't value players till they're proven, but atleast be able to recognize others seeing value in a player. Willy averaged 18 FPS in 18 minutes last year. He's supposed to be the starting center this year. If he averages 28-30 minutes he could easily be around 25-30 FPs. He's also 23! Like in two years, when Dray is a free agent and Hernan and Brown have had two years to develop and are still dirt cheap i could easily see taking the Hernan and Brown side. It's not just always about who is going to produce the most next year. I mean seriously, Brown and Hernan combined for the duration of their contracts are about the same money as Draymond in one year. Like are you expecting an owner to get for Draymond two 35 point scorers?
Idk guys maybe i have it all wrong, but i just don't get how you can't see how valuable young players are to some owners in this league. Time after time young players are valued higher because their potential. People continue to value these players at these levels, yet you guys continue to act as if they aren't. And you are right sometimes player don't work out, but sometimes they do! And you because they do work out at times, buying on them low before they break out is a viable strategy at times. Raps could go around trade Jaylen and Hernan tomorrow for proven assets. I actually haven no idea how you can look at this deal and say it hurts the balance of the league. Hernangomez and Brown are both cheap controllable players who are 20 and 23, who have shown a ton of potential. Raptors has proven to know what he is doing, the guy was the 3rd seed in the playoffs last year for fucks sake. Give me a break man this a fantasy league, and this is the most balanced the leagues been in years let people make their own decisions.
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Post by Charlotte Hornets (TJ) on Jul 17, 2017 19:29:06 GMT -5
Jaylen brown is ass. That's why I lol'd at this trade.
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Post by Milwaukee Bucks (Jacob) on Jul 17, 2017 19:36:07 GMT -5
I get your point, but from a value stand point, having a top 10 player on contract for three more years at 15M is incredibly valuable. Incredibly.
The biggest thing for me is that there were no real proven assets that Raps got in this trade (which is why - although I'm not on the TC, I would've vetoed). Yes, I understand that young players who can improve on good contracts are valuable, but they aren't valuable if they don't improve. Raptors in this trade got no guarantees. Draymond is one of the best players in the year and close to a guarantee of putting up good stats (given he doesn't get any injuries). Sure, one of the guy's Raps got COULD become a star. But the odds of one of them let alone both becoming a star are very small.
I think if you're going to make a franchise altering trade, you need to get a player who is at least somewhat proven, or at least one more guy to give you a better shot of getting a star. I think all who approved greatly underestimated how important Draymond's contract is. It is PHENOMENAL.
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 17, 2017 19:40:41 GMT -5
Uh raptors said if jaylen brown turns into harrison barnes he'll be happy. cmon man lol brown better turn into a helluva better player. his also recent post makes it sound like yacob backed him into a corner and forced him to do the trade. if perk was solid on his position to do the trade instead of regretting it, it'd make some sense. but while caleb's post here makes a ton of fucking sense theres so many other reasons why this trade robs the fuck out of raptors.
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 17, 2017 20:06:38 GMT -5
Charlie shouldn't vote on my trades. I wont vote on his. Clearly there's more than trading reasons, i don't want him voting.
I agree with Caleb 100 percent.
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Post by Charlotte Hornets (TJ) on Jul 17, 2017 20:08:34 GMT -5
I nominate myself to the TC
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 17, 2017 20:14:01 GMT -5
I nominate myself to the TC I'm ok with you voting on mine if you're fair and Caleb ok's it |
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 17, 2017 20:14:11 GMT -5
Charlie shouldn't vote on my trades. I wont vote on his. Clearly there's more than trading reasons, i don't want him voting. I agree with Caleb 100 percent. Yeah that's very false. That'd be like me saying yacob and perk shouldn't do trades because clearly some extra convincing goes on. |
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Post by Milwaukee Bucks (Jacob) on Jul 17, 2017 20:50:13 GMT -5
I will say though that I've always been a fan of stricter vetoes, so take my point as you may. I think non-strict vetoes works great in real life when all teams are invested into the league, have money on the line, and if your team makes a bad trade every other team benefits.
But here, if someone makes really bad trades that get passed, sure it helps one team, but as that team who made the bad trade gets worse and worse, they begin to leave the league, and after that happens to a few teams the league begins to fall apart as no one wants to take those teams.
An argument for another time, though.
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 17, 2017 20:53:39 GMT -5
I will say though that I've always been a fan of stricter vetoes, so take my point as you may. I think non-strict vetoes works great in real life when all teams are invested into the league, have money on the line, and if your team makes a bad trade every other team benefits. But here, if someone makes really bad trades that get passed, sure it helps one team, but as that team who made the bad trade gets worse and worse, they begin to leave the league, and after that happens to a few teams the league begins to fall apart as no one wants to take those teams. An argument for another time, though. You're really exaggerating this trade. |
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 17, 2017 21:01:04 GMT -5
I will say though that I've always been a fan of stricter vetoes, so take my point as you may. I think non-strict vetoes works great in real life when all teams are invested into the league, have money on the line, and if your team makes a bad trade every other team benefits. But here, if someone makes really bad trades that get passed, sure it helps one team, but as that team who made the bad trade gets worse and worse, they begin to leave the league, and after that happens to a few teams the league begins to fall apart as no one wants to take those teams. An argument for another time, though. Great points being made here, but I dont think Perk is just some randy owner. He doesn't have a huge track record but he's here every day multiple times and imo a great part of the league so I don't think that applies to him. Wish he would've acted w more confidence for that trade but shit happens |
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 17, 2017 21:04:34 GMT -5
I will say though that I've always been a fan of stricter vetoes, so take my point as you may. I think non-strict vetoes works great in real life when all teams are invested into the league, have money on the line, and if your team makes a bad trade every other team benefits. But here, if someone makes really bad trades that get passed, sure it helps one team, but as that team who made the bad trade gets worse and worse, they begin to leave the league, and after that happens to a few teams the league begins to fall apart as no one wants to take those teams. An argument for another time, though. You're really exaggerating this trade. But Caleb wasn't? Everything Bucks said in his first post was 1000% correct. You cannot give a top player, on a multi-year contract at a very reasonable rate, and not get anything guaranteed in return. That's fucking ridiculous. Wars... Go back and read your post. Do you realize how many "ifs" you included? Little multi-colored, oddly striated dick Dray is worth way way way more than that. Take me off the TC if we're just gonna pass anything that might ever have the slightest little possibility of perhaps coming to pass some day three or four years down the line. When all we remember is that there was some shitty trade that preceded an owner giving up on a team with zero reliable production. Sent from my Pixel using proboards |
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 17, 2017 21:09:52 GMT -5
In fairness, wars, you also make some great points about perceived value, and in many respects you're right, but there are limits. Draymond is about the best you could hope for in terms of age/contract length/contract value/motherfucking everything, it's not like we're taking about a thirty year old Millsap on an expensive one or two year deal here.
Sent from my Pixel using proboards
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Post by Atlanta Hawks (Trey) on Jul 17, 2017 21:18:28 GMT -5
I second TJs nomination
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 18, 2017 0:51:06 GMT -5
I'll take it a step further and agree that we've (or at least I've) gotten perhaps a bit veto happy, seems like it's a difficult balance to strike and we always end up with a thread like this one, but a reminder on perspective is welcome and needed.
Still no way I'd pass this trade though.
Sent from my Pixel using proboards
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 18, 2017 1:09:40 GMT -5
Kinda disagree w us being veto happy, tons of somewhat questionable trades have passed w the ideal of let people run their own teams. Which I agree with to an extent but imo some trades need a veto if we are to ensure the quality and duration of the league. Remember you can always spin a trade (especially in a dynasty like this where every young player is valued on what they could be) to be "fair".
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Post by Toronto Raptors (Perk) on Jul 18, 2017 14:01:09 GMT -5
Uh raptors said if jaylen brown turns into harrison barnes he'll be happy. cmon man lol brown better turn into a helluva better player. his also recent post makes it sound like yacob backed him into a corner and forced him to do the trade. if perk was solid on his position to do the trade instead of regretting it, it'd make some sense. but while caleb's post here makes a ton of fucking sense theres so many other reasons why this trade robs the fuck out of raptors. I meant Harrison Barnes after 2 years, not long term (I see how that sounded though I was at the bar). Should have been more specific. But getting Hernangomez maybe around 23ppg for that cheap helps bridge the gap to when Brown is ready to start. Like Caleb said this is essentially the #3 pick coming back, there were a lot of stars in our fantasy league getting traded for the top few picks in this draft also. |
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 18, 2017 15:17:47 GMT -5
Kinda disagree w us being veto happy, tons of somewhat questionable trades have passed w the ideal of let people run their own teams. Which I agree with to an extent but imo some trades need a veto if we are to ensure the quality and duration of the league. Remember you can always spin a trade (especially in a dynasty like this where every young player is valued on what they could be) to be "fair". This trade didn't threaten the "Quality and duration" of this league. All parties involved are satisfied. Perk just second guessed himself as we all did when we were in our first couple years of doing this. Now please, stop acting like me getting Draymond Green is like the Warriors signing Kevin Durant. Seriously. |
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 18, 2017 16:43:59 GMT -5
Kinda disagree w us being veto happy, tons of somewhat questionable trades have passed w the ideal of let people run their own teams. Which I agree with to an extent but imo some trades need a veto if we are to ensure the quality and duration of the league. Remember you can always spin a trade (especially in a dynasty like this where every young player is valued on what they could be) to be "fair". This trade didn't threaten the "Quality and duration" of this league. All parties involved are satisfied. Perk just second guessed himself as we all did when we were in our first couple years of doing this. Now please, stop acting like me getting Draymond Green is like the Warriors signing Kevin Durant. Seriously. Was speaking in general not about that deal. |
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 18, 2017 16:55:19 GMT -5
I agree with that principle...it's just like how many trades are really detrimental? With this group? Maybe in the other 30 teamer im in where half the league goes totally rogue, but here? We have a pretty damn knowledgable group here, you don't even see trades that often here because people are smart; they keep their teams intact for the most part for at least a year or so...they dont just have 3 different teams per season....IDK, i just think the group we have here is really good at knowing the values and trading right.
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