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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 14, 2016 16:36:39 GMT -5
Who would you choose to be your teammate?
Player A:
36.1 MPG, 25.0 PPG, .447 FG%, .329 3P%, .482 eFG%, 5.2 RPG, 4.7 APG, 1.4 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 3.0 TOPG
Player B:
26.3 MPG, 14.0 PPG, .450 FG%, .369 3P%, .522 eFG%, 3.7 RPG, 4.0 APG, 1.4SPG, 0.3 BPG, 2.1 TOPG
Per-36 numbers...
Player A:
24.9 points, 19.4 FGA, 5.2 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.5 blocks, 3.0 TO
Player B:
19.2 points, 13.9 FGA, 5.0 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 1.9 steals, 0.4 blocks, 2.9 TO
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 14, 2016 16:39:28 GMT -5
just because certain jackasses chose to try and call me out... here's straight numbers, really not hard to figure out who's who, but perhaps looking at the numbers without names will cause some to re-evaluate effectiveness of play.
for the record, i attempted to discount intangibles and i admitted that Player A was more talented than Player B, but that was clearly not enough, certain jackasses had to continue trying to shame me because of... name recognition? not sure what else it could be.
in case you were wondering, a differnce of 5.5 FGA per game is quite significant, the average TEAM takes about 85 shots per game, so that's roughly a 6.5% overall TEAM/48M increase because of one player.
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 14, 2016 19:04:44 GMT -5
this is going really well so far nice job
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 14, 2016 19:05:05 GMT -5
Dude Kobe is a great and and Manu isnt even close stop being a homer and get this outta here. Put some respekt on Bean's name this doesn't even deserve a poll. It deserves a point and laugh thread lol so HAHA HAHA
Ha
ha
hah
HAHA
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Post by New Orleans Pelicans (Alex) on Jul 15, 2016 2:45:08 GMT -5
Well, he asked who'd be the better teammate and I know for sure I'd rather play with a hyper-efficient team player than a shot-chucking maniac (who admittedly can carry a team on his back tho). It's just more fun and way more involving, but I guess my european is leaking.
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 10:42:37 GMT -5
I also never said manu was better than Kobe, what I said was that if I were constructing the best possible team, meaning the team most likely to be successful if they actually played, I would choose manu over Kobe. But, simpletons have a strong tendency to hear what they want to hear.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 15, 2016 11:12:21 GMT -5
No I have a strong tendency to believe IN WHAT I BELIEVE IN don't call me a simpleton bro lol. If I was constructing the best possible team, I want the most competitive, dawgs on my team that'll kill to win and that's why I'm standing behind the man THE LEGEND KOBE BEAN BRYANT. FUCK WITH ME BRO
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 15, 2016 12:23:11 GMT -5
so really what this thread is asking is
"who would you rather hang out with?"
because unless you're a little putz who gets their feelings hurt you're picking the guy who helps you win and that's obviously Kobe over Manu.
Who would i rather play xbox with? probably Manu....who is gonna help me win games in the 4th quarter? probably Kobe...
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 15, 2016 12:25:15 GMT -5
also Chris is just defending his guy so I respect that but just saying if you're building a team you're not gonna choose Manu over Kobe unless you have.....um, Duncan
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Post by Charlotte Hornets (TJ) on Jul 15, 2016 13:49:47 GMT -5
Lol chris this is your lowest moment ever. Nobody who is serious about winning would choose to have Manu over kobe gtfo with your stupid shit.
Unless we're trying to kill a bat in mid game kobe gets in that ass all day
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 17:09:53 GMT -5
really? becasue:
Player A (Kobe)
22.9 PER, .550 TS%, .382 FTr, 8.1 TRB%, 24.2 AST%, 2.1 STL%, 1.0 BLK%, 31.8 USG% (!), 3.9 box +/-, 0.170 WS/48 (the single most useful number to gauge a player's impact)
Player B (Manu)
20.9 PER, .586 TS%, .411 FTr, 8.1 TRB%, 25.0 AST%, 2.8 STL%, 0.9 BLK%, 24.9 USG%, 5.4 box +/-, .200 WS/48
So Kobe scores more points than Manu (by virtue of hogging the ball and taking way more shots), and he has a hair's edge over him in blocks, other than that Manu is equal or better in literally every facet of the game, and he's far more efficient. There's no way you can say Kobe is a more effective player in terms of helping his team win unless you start talking about intangibles, which we agreed to discount when this conversation took place, and anyway Manu has the edge there too based on those stats (like box +/- and WS/48) which can in some measure account for them.
Get your heads out of your asses and evaluate based on facts, not who the media tells you is the best player, or who has the most fans, or who gets the most recognition. Look at those numbers and please, logically, explain to me how Kobe is better.
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 17:14:38 GMT -5
and PER, Kobe has an advantage there, i forgot about Hollinger's bullshit "advanced" stat measure, but then anyone who was in 25 should remember how i feel about the accuracy/usefulness of PER...
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 15, 2016 17:40:45 GMT -5
the homer bias is strong in this one
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 17:43:46 GMT -5
the homer bias is strong in this one is that what qualifies as a logical argument in your infantile mind? |
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 15, 2016 17:47:56 GMT -5
so first you started out by saying manu is a better teammate and saying how we cant comprehend that and now you're changing your argument to manu is just straight up better than Kobe.....i'm still looking for a logical argument so far it's just you affirming your bias with numbers without context
for a stat geek who is supposedly into this stuff, you know absolutely nothing. but keep going this is reaching epic territory with this meltdown
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 15, 2016 17:48:52 GMT -5
I also never said manu was better than Kobe, ...... lol |
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 17:54:17 GMT -5
what? in our conversation in chat, what i said was that i would choose manu over kobe if i was constructing a team of elite players (meaning a team that would actually play and have the best chance of winning, not some BS "all-time best" team), i never said manu was better than kobe. the stats were in response to the comment consensus that kobe would contribute more to a team's success than manu would, which is simply factually inaccurate. perhaps my use of the word better, the one time there where i asked for logical arguments to support the kobe-lovers' side, confused you... i meant that i would appreciate a logical argument supporting the claim that kobe would make a better choice for the circumstances already described.
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 18:00:02 GMT -5
numbers are logical, they speak for themselves and are entirely factual, it's impossible to say that listing out statistical measurements shows any type of bias, unless i were only showing the numbers where manu excelled, which i did not do. i really don't understand where you're coming from with this. also, how is one supposed to provide context for stats? they're career numbers, if that's what you mean.
my argument, which i have already stated, is that manu is far more efficient and effective, contributing more to a team's overall success, as evidenced by the relevant stats. was that somehow not clear?
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Post by Grizzlies GM (Royce) on Jul 15, 2016 18:16:41 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from Spurs. No doubt Manu was more effective on the team he was on, but I'll take Kobe in his prime over Manu in his prime on an all NBA team for his defense and the ability to take over when he's hot.
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Post by Grizzlies GM (Royce) on Jul 15, 2016 18:19:50 GMT -5
It is also not factually inaccurate that Kobe would contribute more to a team's success than Manu. If you're building this hypothetical team there are no facts regarding who would contribute more on the team. It's a fact Manu was more effective, but it's also a fact that he didn't carry the burden on offense that Kobe did which you need to consider into the stats. Per 36 isn't my favorite stat because play anyone 36 min a game and their stats almost certainly don't reach the per 36 stat.
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 19:20:21 GMT -5
Thank you for making valid and reasonable points, mavs, much appreciated.
However, gotta say, if I'm building a team of elite players, I'm not gonna need Kobe to take over on offense. This is part of why I said I'd rather have manu in the first place... there would be plenty of options on offense, all the more reason to have someone who can make an impact without requiring so many touches/shots to do so.
I understand that the converse is also true, meaning that Kobe's efficiency would almost certainly improve if he didn't have to carry the offense all the time, and that's a valid argument. His efficiency when he had shaq there to help shoulder the load, also when he was in his prime incidentally, was still not as good as manu's average.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 15, 2016 20:05:21 GMT -5
Kobe wouldn't have to take over on an all time great team jeez. Can u admit Kobe is better or now? Whose the better all time player? WE KNOW who ur favorite player is and who you'd take based on bias and your "stats." Your the common Kobe hater who looks at the stats and all this bullshit.
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Post by Grizzlies GM (Royce) on Jul 15, 2016 20:09:12 GMT -5
Right Spurs but then I'll go back to my defense argument. Not saying Manu is awful at D but Kobe was a very good defender
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 15, 2016 20:44:44 GMT -5
Right Spurs but then I'll go back to my defense argument. Not saying Manu is awful at D but Kobe was a very good defender Kobe 2.535 average defensive win share, career best DWS of 4.5 (99-00), -0.6 avg defensive box +/-, career best DBPM of 1.7 (99-00), 105 points allowed per 100 possessions, career best DRtg of 98 (also 99-00, a great defensive year for him, not surprisingly also a year in which shaq was playing at his prime and kobe didn't have to worry so much about his man getting past him) Manu 3.100 average defensive win share, career best DWS 5.1 (03-04), 1.3 avg defensive box +/-, career best DBPM 2.5 (03-04), 100 points allowed per 100 possessions, career best DRtg 93 (03-04, and to be fair to the kobe comment, yes this was playing with duncan at his prime, the difference is that manu consistently achieved similar numbers whereas kobe's 99-00 season defensively was a statistical anomaly; he never came close to those numbers before or after) these numbers noted, this is one of the rare instances where i think the stats are misleading; manu's defensive numbers are inflated because of his high steal rate, which he achieved by frequently gambling on that side of the ball, and kobe was better at staying in front of his man. however, i don't think there's an explanation for the points allowed numbers... you also have the fact that the spurs often liked to put manu on the opposing pg to attempt to hide parker's inadequacy there. i'd call them a draw defensively overall. |
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Post by Chicago Bulls (Charlie) on Jul 16, 2016 3:15:53 GMT -5
A DRAW DEFENSIVELY OVERALL?!?!? lol dude Kobe's been on NINE 9 all NBA defensive 1st teams, and Manu? none. not even a 2nd team. the man gambles at will this is BLASPHEMOUS I TELL YOU BLASPHEMOUS  |
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Post by Grizzlies GM (Royce) on Jul 16, 2016 8:33:25 GMT -5
Isn't points allowed based on the team too? It also depends on your team's playing style on offense. The Spurs have always been methodical which helps them limit points allowed.
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Post by San Antonio Spurs (Chris) on Jul 16, 2016 9:52:49 GMT -5
Chuck, how many all-NBA defensive teams he made is of minimal importance, it's an award granted entirely as a product of the subjective feelings of a group of individuals, and name recognition plays far too large a role (like all trophies handed out in the NBA). For example, Ron Artest made two All-NBA defensive first teams, Alonzo mourning made two, Tony Allen three, Doug Christie one, dikembe mutombo three, etc. Are you suggesting that Kobe was defensively superior to all those guys as well? If so, I'd love to hear an explanation as to how/why. For reference, Michael Jordan, while a good defender (like Kobe) made a disproportionate 9, just like Kobe, which is... well, lol ridiculous, really. Landon: www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.htmlDRtg attempts to place a number on a player's individual performance outside the team context. However, on close examination of the formulas used and the accompanying explanations, there is a certain element of team play that cannot be statistically isolated. Namely that "Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore)... They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute." So, the spurs' style of play, which for years limited the total number of overall possessions, is not a factor, but the team defensive efficiency most definitely is. This does explain the discrepancy to some extent, because the effectiveness of the team defense behind him covered (again, to some extent) the mistakes that manu made with his frequent gambles. However, I could also argue that was because manu was smart and knew he could afford to gamble (much like Kobe in his one truly effective defensive season, 99-00 with shaq behind him, add previously discussed), which really just makes him an even better defender. Besides, didn't I already state that this was a case where I thought the stats were misleading? On a larger scale, if you can't produce any consistently good defensive numbers over a twenty year career... can you really blame that on all the different teammates you played with? I think the sample size is large enough, and kobe played beside enough defensive studs, that one must question his commitment on that end. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards |
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Post by Yacob (freelance idiot) on Jul 16, 2016 9:58:00 GMT -5
Defensive Rating = (Opponent's Points Allowed/ Opponent's Possessions) x 100
again somebody who claims to know what they're talking about just simply does not
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Post by Kobe Bryant on Jul 16, 2016 9:59:13 GMT -5
Yo, listen up "chris" I'd light up Manu anyday and I've got 5 rings. Hop off
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Post by Kobe Bryant on Jul 16, 2016 10:00:16 GMT -5
NERD
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